Thursday, August 5, 2010

The Dangers of Hyper-Calvinism

Over the last two days I have been exchanging in conversation with a hyper-Calvinist on Facebook. Eventually, I had to end the conversation due to his irrationality and insulting attitude. This gentleman seems to believe that one must be a Calvinist in order to truly be saved. When a person falls into that kind of thinking, beware! In the exchange you will note that I asked him several times for Scriptural proof of his beliefs and logic, which he failed to do. I am re-posting this exchange for a number of reasons:
  1. Other believers need to be aware of the kind of heresy that is being taught to others.
  2. I wish to show the kind of irrational thinking a person uses when challenged to show their view-point from Scripture and cannot.
  3. Hopefully, we will all use Scripture as our plumb line and avoid either extreme.

The conversation has been left entirely as it was posted. The only thing that I have rendered are: (1) All of his statements will be in blue with my responses in black. There was one other gentleman, Richard, whose portions I have put in red. (2) I have italicized the portions that were quoted. Other than that, the conversation is the same—including our grammar and spelling errors :-)

Please read and keep Scripture in the forefront of your mind.

God bless,

Kirk Bookmyer-- Also J.R. White said in his Aug 3 DL podcast that Arminians don't have true substitional penal atonement. Therefore, I don't think it is at all a stretch to say that all Arminians are simply inconsistently Roman Catholic in Doctrine. The dividing line (even according to James White) is not the Marian Dogmas, or the Romanish Priestcraft. What makes Rome man-centered is exaclty what makes all Arminians man-centered!

Kirk Bookmyer-- A man-centered gospel is a false gospel that leads to hell not eternal life!

Steven Long What then, are you implying, Kirk? All Arminians are lost? Just wondering

Kirk Bookmyer-- What is the bible teaching?! That is the question. Arminians are to be treated like Roman Catholics. Our stance should be - come out of the false-church and be blameless. Come out of Sodom and save yourself if you have the Spirit of God! If you are a sheep and not a goat, then the GOOD SHEPHERD will drag you out of Rome, Calvary Chapel, Harvest Bible Chapel, Most Southern Baptist Churches, Lutheran Churches, Methodist, Wesleyan, Church of Christ, etc.

Richard Haas-- When it comes to Salvation of the Amrinians I would say some Amrinians are saved, that's barley saved, saved by not their own doing but because God has chosen them for Salvation. They are not saved by some prayer of asking Jesus into their heart I.e most baptist, baptism as an infant most Lutherans or any other means except that on no merit of their own did Christ save them.

Kirk Bookmyer-- I agree! And it is for these lambs that we are going into Arminian strongholds of evil (churches) and saying let Christ's lambs go free. Let my people go! So that they may worship me in truth. These false churches and their leaders will pay for their treason against the King of kings.

Steven Long--I was looking for a direct yes or no. If yes, does that mean you were'nt actually saved until you became a Calvinist? And you should be very careful at who you quote to support your views. Dr White does not agree that a person must be a Calvinist to be saved.

The gospel is repent and believe! Period! What you are saying is unbiblical and wrong simply because the doctrine of God's complete soverirgnty is a hard thing for many people to grasp. I wrestled with it for a long time. Don't count out one for a brother/sister in Christ who has not yet come to the same conclusions you and I have. See More

Kirk Bookmyer--I was led astray by Arminians when I was already leaning Calvinistic from the start of my new life in Christ. The power of the Spirit saved me out of their evil hands. And now, I am equipped to crush their false gospel. And I intend to put it to death by the power of the Spirit!

James White has unintentionally by what he says taught me that Roman Catholics have a false gospel. And that Arminianism is man-centered. And that Rome is man-centered in the same way. So, even if James White is unable to piece the puzzle together because of his tradition (of counting Arminians with the benefit of the doubt for emotional reasons), I have put together the puzzle pieces that he so faithfully provided me and that is the picture the puzzle makes. That isn't my fault. It is his puzzle (or the Spirit's more accurately)! Many times prophets themselves fail to see the big picture of their own prophesies. That keeps even the prophet humble to the glory of God.

The gospel is REPENT and believe in a God-centered Gospel/God. That is in counter-distinction to the man-centered Gospel/God/Jesus. Read Galatians 1:6-9. If a man-centered gospel is not another gospel, then I don't know what would be!See More

Richard Haas--Here is a quick break down on 5 points of what the Armenians believe.
1 Human Free Will - This states that though man is fallen, he is not incapacitated by the sinful nature and can freely choose God. His will is not restricted and enslaved by his sinful nature.
2 Conditional Election - God chose people for salvation based on his foreknowledge where God looks into the future to see who would respond to the gospel message.
3 Universal Atonement - The position that Jesus bore the sin of everyone who ever lived.
4 Resistible Grace - The teaching that the grace of God can be resisted and finally beaten so as to reject salvation in Christ.
5 Fall from Grace - The Teaching that a person can fall from grace and lose his salvation.

In comparison this is what reformed or Calvinists theology teaches.
1) Total depravity: that man is touched by sin in all parts of his being: body, soul, mind, and emotions.
2) Unconditional Election: that God’s favor to Man is completely by God’s free choice and has nothing to do with Man. It is completely undeserved by Man and is not based on anything God sees in man (Eph. 1:1-11).
3) Limited atonement: that Christ did not bear the sins of every individual who ever lived, but instead only bore the sins of those who were elected into salvation (John 10:11,15).
4) Irresistible grace: that God's call to someone for salvation cannot be resisted.
5) Perseverance of the saints: that it is not possible to lose one's salvation (John 10:27-28).

Kirk Bookmyer-- Obviously a different religion! For those who have any discernment can clearly see that!

Steven Long--"I was led astray by Arminians when I was already leaning Calvinistic from the start of my new life in Christ."

So you were lost until you "became" a Calvinist? Kirk, your beliefs have no foundation in Scripture. A person who is not a Calvinist is saved if they have repented and believed in Christ, NOT if they have accepted the sovereignty of God in salvation. To put requirements of eternal life on a person is in fact adding to the gospel and becomes a type of "works" salvation in and of itself because you are requiring a one to come to a complete understanding of these doctrines before they can be saved. Do you yourself have perfect understanding? If so, please explain to the rest of us, for Your statements (especially those regarding Dr. White) reflect and incredible amount of ignorance and at the least are extremely arrogant. It shows the level of immaturity in your thinking. If you have a Scriptural basis, please present it or stop making ridiculous these ridiculous claims.

BTW, here is a link from AOMIN's website regarding this very issue. Since you use White as a promoter of your belief you should at least take the time to actually read what he says. Note, that he calls this kind of attitude false teaching:

Richard--I am aware of what Arminians believe. However, people I would consider Arminian believe in Total Depravity and Perseverance of the Saints. My point was that a person is not required to be a Calvinist before God accepts them.

Kirk Bookmyer--You can't come to the Arminian version of Jesus because he is an idol in their imaginary world of human autonomy. Doctrine defines what Jesus you embrace. And yes you do have to belief the fundamentals of the faith. Which if you haven't ...notice IS CALVINISM! Now, repent of your foolishness you are a marked man. And the wrath of God is coming upon those who count the gospel of Jesus Christ a light matter. I bet there is all sorts of sin in your life. When was the last time you submitted to a Christian audit of your life AND doctrine!

I declare HOLY WAR on your attitude. May God choose between me and YOU!

Richard Haas-- ‎@ Steve I agree that a person does not have to be a Calvinist to be saved God choose people on His merit not ours, Calvinist or Arminian. My point is that the Calvinist teachings line up more with the Scriptures of the bible than Arminian teachings do. I have studied each side and was an Arminianist for a short time before I really started to study the Scriptures and found out that Calvinism answers more of the questions of the bible I had better than Arminianist view points.

Steven Long--Richard I completely agree with you. Calvinism is in line with the truth. God chooses men for salvation as per Eph1:4-5, 11, Re 17:8, 2Thes2:13, etc. I was an Armininan for 11 years before I came to the truth of Reformed Theology.

Kirk--Despite your insane ramblings you have yet to prove your point with Scripture.

The gospel is simply this:

Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call (Acts 2:37-39)

Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole family (Acts 16:30-34)

NOPE, nothing in there about requiring Calvinism to be saved. Peter nor Paul ever mentions God's ultimate decree of predestination or Limited Atonement. Paul didn't tell the jailer "Look, you have to believe but you must also accept the fact that God chose you or else you cannot be saved.

In the meantime, you may accuse me of what you like, but you should be careful about trying to "point out sin" in another person's life. Make sure, brother, you remove the beam from your own eye before you try to remove the speck from mine (Mt 7:3). So feel free to declare Holy War on me all you wish. Call me a weak Calvinist; call me unholy. I could care less, for as you said, God will judge between us.

The simple fact that you are outraged by my earlier comment along with the apparent rambling of incessant talk about Islam (you lost me on that one!) is proof enough that you cannot defend your position Scripturally. You purposely avoided a direct question; two of them in fact, justifying your former beliefs by stating that you were "already leaning Calvinistic" from your early days as a new believer. You refuse then, to admit that you once held those beliefs and considered yourself saved, yet do not give the same benefit of doubt to those who now have those beliefs. Your statements are self-contradictory, Kirk. So please, tell us all: Were you saved BEFORE you became a Calvinist or AFTER you became a Calvinist? You can't have it both ways.

Kirk Bookmyer--Believe in the Lord Jesus! Which one? The Calvinistic One! MONERGISM!

Kirk Bookmyer-- I was always a Calvinist, since I was Christian!

Steven Long--"Believe in the Lord Jesus! Which one? The Calvinistic One! MONERGISM!"

Right Kirk. Way to exegete that passage (sarcasm intended).

"I was always a Calvinist, since I was Christian!"

But you also said, "I was led astray by Arminians when I was already leaning Calvinistic from the start of my new life in Christ." So then, did you loose your salvation when you were led astray by these Arminians?

You seem to be contradicting yourself. How could be a Calvinist from the beginning when you were led astray by Arminians in your early Christian life?

Kirk Bookmyer--You seem to be stupid. You can be led astray as a baby by a stranger who you thought you could trust only to find out that he is evil to the core as he tries to kill you. Then, when you are old enough to realize he is poisoning you to death you pick up an ax and kill the wolf. That doesn't mean that you (the sheep) was ever a wolf. Sheep have always been sheep (simply lost or astray) dogs, goats, pigs, wolves have never been nor ever will be sheep!

Steven Long--Kirk, I was being facetious when I asked about loosing your salvation. (At least I assume that is what your response is about. Your arguments are very random and have no flow of thought.) My point in asking you that is because you seem to accuse those who are Armininans of not being true Christians when you yourself admitted to being led astray by Arminianism.

I will ask the question again: Were you a Christian when you were led astray by Arminianism?

It is a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer. There is no need for a long drawn out response. Please stop avoiding the issue and, either be honest and admit that you have no Scriptural basis for your beliefs or stop making these ridiculous statements.

Kirk Bookmyer--Your logic (or lack of depth) seems to be...

If I say I was a Christian prior to my affirmation of Calvinism to the exclusion of Arminianism, then I am using a double standard to assert that Arminians are not true Christians.

on the other hand

If I say that I was not a Christian prior to my affirmation of Calvinism to the exclusion of Arminianism, then I am in the heresy of doctrinal regeneration.

You are trying to trap me. And just as Jesus dealt with those who are enemies of the gospel, so I will deal with you.

The truth is people are either sheep or some other animal (pig, goat, dog, wolf). When Adam fell all sheep were lost. You see the sheep are the elect. And the other animals are the reprobate. The sheep (even though they are lost and then found) always have been sheep. The elect have always been loved/elected. When a sheep turns to Christ as the sheep is now found by Jesus, the sheep hasn't turned into a sheep from being a goat (or other animal). The sheep has gone from lost to found. He has gone from death (being among the reprobate and other lost sheep) to life! In the same way a lost Calvinist is still a Calvinist. God made him a Calvinist (sheep) and not another kind of animal (Arminian/Free Will Satanist). So all that actually is happening is the Calvinist mortifies the sin of his Arminian nature (which was contrary to his status in election) and is found to be a child of Abraham (a Calvinist by another name). While the TRUE ARMINIAN (reprobate by another name) is dead and will remain dead. They are not lost (since only sheep are truly lost). They are intended never to be found. These TRUE ARMINIAN reprobate were never intended to be kept by God in the first place. So they are about as lost as the stray cat you "dropped off" far from your home hoping it would stay away forever. I don't think you in that case would say you have a lost cat. You have sent you cat away. It is not really lost like your car keys when you can't find them.

In my mind (by the instruction of the bible) I have equated the Doctrines of Grace to be equal to Christianity. They are one and the same. So whenever I find a truth in the bible I put it exclusively in the category of Reformed Theology (Calvinism). But when I find a demonic lie I put that in the category of false religion (Arminianism). That is why I can say what I say without being contrary to my understanding of the bible!

Steven Long--You are right in saying that a person is either a sheep or a goat and does not become a sheep upon salvation. My contention with you is not that point. The problem is that you have no Scriptural basis (as I have asked several times for you to point to) that a person MUST hold to the Doctrines of Grace in order to be saved. If an Armininan has repented and trusted in Christ, and if the fruit of his tree (his lifestyle) bears forth good fruit (John 15:1-8) then the Bible calls him a child of God (cf, 1John 3:7-10). STOP ADDING TO THE GOSPEL!!! You are just like the Pharisees of Galatians who continually burdened the people with the Mosaic Law. Unless you yourself have perfect understanding of God's sovereignty you have no right to tell another that they must have and accept it in order to be saved.

Your only own imaginations and arrogance have devised this wall that you are putting up between other believers. You cannot point to a single Scripture, or even a respected Reformed author for that matter, who holds your position. Unless Scripture says it, don't say it either.

BTW, there was really any need to post John Owen on my wall. I'm not sure what your intention was , but I own a copy of the book and have dived into it so I am familiar with it.

Kirk Bookmyer--BTW, Owen is good for those who feed on your wall. Feed my sheep!

I equate the gospel to preaching a particular kind of Christ to avoid the anathema on those who preach a different Christ/gospel. The monergistic Jesus is not the same as the synergistic jesus. They are different Gods. One is an idol of man's imagination.

Steven Long--But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned (Titus 3:9-11)

I must end our conversation with this verse. I have repeatedly asked for Scriptural proof of your gospel (for it is not the Bible's gospel) and you have only replied with insult and incessant ramblings of your own making. There are three specific things that I see that need to happen at this point:

1) First and foremost, present a Biblical case for the reason that non-Calvinists are not Christians.

2) Stop pretending to have the "inside knowledge" on who God is and what He does. You have deceived yourself into thinking that you are right and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong. The Bible calls that pride, and pride is a grievous sin. Your attitude that one must come to the same conclusions as you or me in order to be in God's grace is heresy. Not one author of repute can you find to support this blasphemy. In essence, YOU are the one adding to the gospel as I noted earlier.

3.) Lastly, you appear to have no idea as to the true nature of grace and maybe you should take time to study the subject. If you think you know God's character so well as to know that He would extend grace to those who have not yet come full circle with His complete control is to say, in essence, that you are on the same level as He. God is much farther beyond you and we as believers will spend an eternity getting to know that God. So don't kid yourself into thinking God is pleased with your attitude.

Thank you for your interaction.

Affirming the Solas,
NOTE: Before posting his slander on my wall, Mr. Bookmyer posted this as his last comment:
Kirk Bookmyer--You are excommunicated from the Church - Repent or die forever in hell!



  2. Thanks for posting this. You saved me the trouble of exposing your lies myself!

    Here are more writings of mine for you to post.

    Please do not edit them, either. Thanks, again.

  3. Kirk, I am neither interested nor the least bit concerned about your posts. What I posted here was straight from our Facebook conversation.

    The reader is able to judge for himself/herself of who it is that stands upon Biblical grounds. To this day you still have never given any Scriptural proof for your heretical belief that one must be a Calvinist in order to truly be saved. Until you can present a Biblical case please do not troll on this blog. By the way, you may want to read the blog rules (link above) before commenting again.

  4. Steve I thank you so much for your patience and tireless effort to refute Kirks errors and deceptive hypercalvinistic lies. I am sure it would have been very easy to insult him as he has done to you. But you maintained your integrity throughout this whole conversation so that those who look at your postings will be able to see the Gospel of God in truth. God bless you and thank you very much.

  5. Romans9slected,

    Thank you for the encouraging words. I appreciate you chiming in. It really does encourage us (there are 4 authors on this blog, myself, Tony, Danny, and Adam) that there are others out there that know and understand the difference between "The doctrines of Grace and the Grace of the Doctrines (R.C. Sproul).

    Thank you so much for your comment. But may I ask you one thing? I clicked on your profile but it was not available. May I please ask your name?

    And thank you again.

    Affirming the Solas,

  6. I am Jonathan Sutton, 25 years old; married and have 3 children. I am a reformed Baptist. And i have been a believer for 8 years.

  7. Thank you, Johnathan. I appreciate your encouragement :-)